Saturday, July 27, 2019

I Kissed Evangelicalism Goodbye: My Thoughts on Joshua Harris' Apostasy

Every once in a while, when he was alive, my dad would watch Abbot and Costello. Bud Abbott was the straight man, and Lou Costello the comic, or "banana man." This made up what is called a comic duo, where one man sets up, or "feeds," another in an act. It was all entertaining because one would identify with Bud Abbott as a rational man, and then get hit by the humor of the irrational funny man, as though the two were at odds with one another. In reality, they were both working together, one to set up the other, and to draw the audience in.

I remember sitting in the lounge of my dorm at Moody with some fellow classmates and hearing one of them talk about his belief that Evangelicalism was dying out. I said to him, "Really, I view Evangelicalism as orthodox Christianity." He said, rather astonished, "Really?"

Over the years, I came to realize why he was so astonished, and just how ignorant my belief was. That's because my true education began, not at Moody, but at Trinity and Westminster, where I started to learn the Bible and Christian theology at an advanced level. This allowed me to begin to see how much modern Evangelicalism was a superficial counterfeit of orthodox Christianity, not the champion of it that it had made itself out to be.

There are, of course, elements of orthodox Christianity within Evangelicalism, which is why it had become such a convincing counterfeit. It originally held up the Bible as the infallible Word of God, affirmed core Christian doctrines like the Trinity and justification by faith, etc.

However, that is all that it affirmed. There was never a fullness to its orthodoxy, a healthy weight on its bones. It always somewhat resembled an anorexic teenager, just enough skin on it to pass as living, but largely malnutritioned and dying.

What I realized over the years is that Evangelicalism is a part of a larger American religion that assumes all sorts of Enlightement and Post-Enlightment ideas in its view of knowledge, God, experience, sexuality, etc. In fact, what I came to realize at a certain point was that it was simply a more conservative form of the liberal theology that it pretended, and still pretends, to fight against.

I often use the term "Americanity" to describe the cult of American "christianity" that includes the flavors of liberalism, fundamentalism, evangelicalism, emergings, etc.; but in reality, they are all the same slurpee with different food coloring.

This is largely due to the fact that, at the end of the day, they all get their ideas from the same source, the self.

Oh, I know, Evangelicalism says it gets its ideas from the Bible, but does it really? The most important practice to grow as a Christian in Evangelicalism is to study your own Bible. Where is this concept in Scripture? The most important practice that leads to growth in Scripture is to set yourself under the discipleship of an apostolic church that teaches the Bible (Eph 4). That's quite a difference. It also means that one is connected to the Christianity that has been taught and learned for 2000 years before.

What that means is that one is constantly reforming, questioning one's secular culture and religious traditions, not by the standard of his Evangelical cult or the wider consensus of American culture, but by the Word of God as it has been understood throughout history and is exegeted in the community of the Holy Spirit that is the church. It is this measuring stick that gives a framework for thinking about any issue.

But Evangelicalism, at the very first, was primarily concerned for how the world around it perceived it. It wanted to be more respected by the larger culture. It argued that Christians should be more involved secular academics, which coupled with the desire to be accepted, resulted in the apostasy of many an academic Christian who soon realized that acceptance by the secular academy meant abandonment of Christian orthodoxy, not just an adoption of critical methods of study. It was meant to be less divisive over secondary issues, a designation it gave to anything outside of the skeleton of what it considered orthodox.

The effect that this had was that Evangelicals reduced what was required of one to believe he was a Christian. Some stayed on an inerrant Bible and the Trinity. Some went so far as to simply believe that one had to believe in Jesus in some way or another. Others believed that one needed only affirm that one is saved by grace. Whatever the boundary marker, it was so narrow a path that one could hardly blame the weary traveler from falling off of it.

And therein lies the problem of Evangelicalism. It isn't a robust worldview. It doesn't provide anyone a framework for thinking through issues and living them out in the Christian life. It's designed specifically as a blanket to be placed over whatever worldview one already has. It's much like the Roman Empire, desiring to grow bigger by assuming the cultures of everything in its path to the point where there is nothing distinctive about the Empire from the world before it was conquered by it. It certainly obtained for Evangelicalism bigger buildings and masses of people, but that's only because there was nothing to offend anyone anymore. People could just believe whatever they wished without the threat of walking outside the faith. After all, they still believe in the Trinity even though their ethics all came from superficial music, movies, newsmedia,  school, etc.

Since you can believe all sorts of things, there isn't much left to distinguish Evangelicalism from any other American belief system. Even Hindus and Muslims believe in Jesus in some way. Even Roman Catholics and EO's believe in the Trinity (which is why many Evangelicals think they're just another denominational option for them). Every religion on the planet has an idea of grace.

What does all of this have to do with the apostasy of Joshua Harris? His apostasy, and the statements he makes in his declaration, are a further reminder that Evangelicals are more influenced by their culture than they would like to admit.

For instance, he states that his previous views, i.e., the ones that were closer to orthodox Christianity, were "bigoted." This is an odd assessement from someone who no longer has a transcedent measuring stick. Where did he get the idea that such was bigotry? Oh yes. Popular opinion among the unbelieving masses. He also states that he is in a state of deconstruction; but how exactly would one know one's trajectory of thought without a standard? Oh yes, the standard is culture. One is moving toward culture and further away from an orthdox Christian worldview.

My point is that Harris already had a framework in place that eventually convinced him that orthodox Christianity was false, even while truly believing certain doctrines and practices that belonged to orthodox Christianity. I see this in every apostate that Evangelicalism produces. It is a system bereft of understanding.

I say this because anyone who thinks long and hard about it, anyone who is actually educated in the matter, would not come out acting like he knew a better way. The only options are Christianity or radical skepticism to the point that one cannot identify what is bigoted, what is right, what is harmful, etc.

But Harris comes out of Evangelicalism bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, knowing that everything is going to be alright, that he should apologize to unbelievers because the views he critiqued in the past are morally valid after all, and that his former views were wrong. How exactly does he know any of this? Because the real religious authority for the Evangelical is not the Bible or the historical church, or even his modern local church. It is culture. Evangelicalism, because it does not present the whole counsel of God as vital to its members, does not teach it, and now does not know it, ends up just being the straight man setting up the comic of secular culture. Only the punch line isn't all that funny. It leads to destruction, to divorce, to hopelessness, and to ruined lives that are convinced they are happy because they were living in some sort of legalism rather than in a loving relationship toward God that sought the truth and good in everything from the sources God commanded they be sought.

In essence, Evangelicalism is a rebellious movement form the get go. It is not a surprise that what is begun in apostasy ends in apostasy. So I am an apostate too. I apostasized from the cult of Evangelicalism. I kissed it goodbye. But I did not give up one chair in the cult meeting just to sit down in another as Harris did. By adopting genuine Christianity as a comprehensive worldview obtained from the whole counsel of God, I walked out of the building altogether.

20 comments:

  1. Much to agree with here. I have long been disillusioned with American Evangelicalism. However, most denominations considered orthodox became liberal decades ago. This is an honest question: who, in your mind, represents orthodox Christianity now? Or do you mean Orthodox (uppercase) Christianity?

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  2. Little "o" orthodox. I think its found, where it was always found really, in any church teaching the whole counsel of God within the framework of historic orthodox creeds, filling them out with the full teaching of Scripture as it addresses every issue of life and godliness. In that regard, I don't think there is any refuge in particular denominations. I would just say "reformed" churches who are busy reforming from the Word of God within historic orthodoxy.

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  3. So where is this magical apostolic church? Is it Catholicism, Reformed, Armenian, Anabaptist, etc, etc, etc. Your blanket condemnation of the evangelical church is, to say the least, myopic. I would agree there is much wrong with most evangelical churches, but that applies to virtually every Christian denomination or church movement. There are evangelical churches that are very sound, where they preach through books of the Bible so people will actually understand the context of Scripture, where there is an emphasis on understanding Scripture, developing a biblical world view, and actually living your faith in your everyday life. In the end, it is the responsibility of the individual Christian to seek out sound teaching and develop the tools whereby he can discern sound teaching from false teaching. Tradition is at best an uncertain standard.
    Joshua Harris's teachings were easily identified as false. Anyone who tells you "if you do this, this, this and this, then God will give you what you want," is a false teacher.

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  4. I'm pretty sure I answered all of this, but I'll give it another shot.

    My entire point is that the apostolic church isn't found in a denomination or movement. It is found in the local church that is faithful to teach the whole counsel of God within the historic orthodox framework given to it.

    It's interesting that you locate it in the individual. That's a very enlightenment-oriented view that no doubt you got from Evangelicalism (which is what I'm critiquing).

    You end up proving my point that within Evangelicalism there are both churches teaching the whole counsel of God and churches that are not. That's because Evangelicalism is a mile wide and an inch deep and can incorporate anything and everything, faithful and unfaithful churches. It's a wax nose, and therefore, is useless to the church that is faithful, but deadly to the unfaithful church because it offers no corrective course. Instead, it argues for a reductionist form of Christianity so that it can incorporate all of these churches.

    How would Joshua Harris' teachings be identified as false by Evangelicals who were taught the same superficial Christianity over and over again in the less than faithful churches? Where does the Bible say it's their individual responsibility to be biblical scholars and evaluate other teachers? It's the local church's responsibility to teach its people and equip them to do that. Is everyone to go to seminary in your theology? Laymen are not equipped to discern every issue. How would they know tradition is an uncertain standard? Their own interpretations? Teachers are gifted to the local church for that reason.

    This idea that the individual should shepherd himself is the problem with Evangelicalism and American religion in general.

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  5. Actually, I "locate it in the individual" for many reasons that have nothing to do with Evangelicalism. First, I am responsible for my choices, so I had better be as well informed and as discerning as possible when I make them. Second, there is a wealth of information in the world today. We live in a time when we have access to some of the best theological studies being written since the first century and also some of the worst. I need to be able to distinguish between the wheat and the chaff. We also live in a time when the individual has access to tools that will allow him to educate himself (Accordance, Bible Works, Logos etc.) Lazy Christians are not just endemic to evangelicalism. Ideally, one should find men to be mentored by, this also adds accountability which is essential to spiritual maturity. But in the end you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices and your walk with God. Paul found it necessary to withdraw into Arabia for three years after his conversion, maybe a focus on the individual is not just an “Evangelical” thing.
    I don’t know why you have singled out Evangelicalism for your attack. When challenged you fall back on the individual Church as being the Apostolic church . Surely, you won’t deny that in the Evangelical community there are many sound biblical Churches. I would love to see the Evangelical Church separate itself from the charismatic movement and the Seeker Sensitive Movement and the Promise Keepers movement and the Purity Movement, etc, etc, etc.. But you seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think if you look at completely autonomous local churches you will find a similar smattering of sound and heretical churches, probably more heretical churches than sound since they are only accountable to themselves.
    Finally, I take very strong exception to your claim that evangelicalism is only an inch deep. We have remarkable scholars today like Daniel Wallace (Greek), John Sailhamer (Hebrew, R.K. Sproul (Theology). Quite frankly, the criticism you make of Evangelicalism I see applicable to Christianity throughout the history of the church. The Church has always been plagued by false teachers, often in church leadership. And God has always preserved a faithful remnant. It’s the individual’s responsibility to identify that remnant and be a part of it.

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  6. "Actually, I "locate it in the individual" for many reasons that have nothing to do with Evangelicalism. First, I am responsible for my choices, so I had better be as well informed and as discerning as possible when I make them."

    That's very Evangelical of you. How would Christians in history acquire this knowledge, or is it a new command from God that you got through your own experience and reason instead of from the Word of God?

    " Second, there is a wealth of information in the world today. We live in a time when we have access to some of the best theological studies being written since the first century and also some of the worst. I need to be able to distinguish between the wheat and the chaff."

    And how do you know the difference between the two without becoming a scholar, or is it the command of God that all become scholars today because of this newfound source of information? Again, according to what revelation are you making these claims?

    "We also live in a time when the individual has access to tools that will allow him to educate himself (Accordance, Bible Works, Logos etc.) Lazy Christians are not just endemic to evangelicalism. Ideally, one should find men to be mentored by, this also adds accountability which is essential to spiritual maturity."

    Again, how are you deciphering between good and bad information, good and bad mentors? You're just arguing in a circle. You're assuming that you'll be able to acquire discernment because you already have it in order to discern between good and bad material/mentors.

    " But in the end you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices and your walk with God."

    I never said otherwise, but its a non sequitur to argue from that to the idea that each individual gains discernment through self-study. Where are you getting the idea without first begging the idea? You've not answered that very important question. Is this coming from personal revelation from God? Can only modern Christians since the time of the internet be faithful to the Christian path of discernment then, and the others throughout history are unfaithful because they had to trust their local churches?

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  7. "Paul found it necessary to withdraw into Arabia for three years after his conversion, maybe a focus on the individual is not just an “Evangelical” thing."

    Paul withdrew to receive direct revelation from Christ because he wouldn't have gotten the right view from men, or himself through self study (he was self-studied and he came to the wrong conclusions as a Pharisee). Is that what you're suggesting?

    "I don’t know why you have singled out Evangelicalism for your attack. When challenged you fall back on the individual Church as being the Apostolic church . Surely, you won’t deny that in the Evangelical community there are many sound biblical Churches."

    I don't think you're reading me. I just said that there are faithful churches in Evangelicalism because it is such a broad and superficial category that it can include almost any church to some degree. That's also why it isn't helpful to those local churches and instead is harmful in its portrayal of what is important to learn in Christianity.

    " I would love to see the Evangelical Church separate itself from the charismatic movement and the Seeker Sensitive Movement and the Promise Keepers movement and the Purity Movement, etc, etc, etc.. But you seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater."

    The baby is orthodox Christianity. The bathwater is Evangelicalism. I'm throwing the bathwater out.

    "I think if you look at completely autonomous local churches you will find a similar smattering of sound and heretical churches, probably more heretical churches than sound since they are only accountable to themselves."

    You might want to read me better. I didn't say the local churches don't also have heretical churches among them. However, I see no evidence that denominations have it any better. We live among denominations that are filled with heretical and apostate churches and are no better off in dealing with them (most often even being consumed by them).

    "Finally, I take very strong exception to your claim that evangelicalism is only an inch deep. We have remarkable scholars today like Daniel Wallace (Greek), John Sailhamer (Hebrew, R.K. Sproul (Theology). Quite frankly, the criticism you make of Evangelicalism I see applicable to Christianity throughout the history of the church."

    And all of those guys believe different things because Evangelicalism can claim any and all of them. That's the point I'm making that you seem to be missing. Evangelicalism is superficial and that's why you have all of those teachers under its blanket. It's a failed attempt by Billy Graham and Carl Henry to harmonize Enlightenment and Post-Enlightenment ideas with a watered-down form of Christianity.
    The Church has always been plagued with false teachers, no doubt, and Evangelicalism enables them to continue unhindered. It's a heretic's dream. But my post is more about the fact that Evangelicalism does not provide a robust worldview to counter any other religious or secular worldview. That's why it must be filled in with any and everything, and can include a church teaching the full counsel of God as much as life filled with secular ethics and ideas.
    "And God has always preserved a faithful remnant. It’s the individual’s responsibility to identify that remnant and be a part of it."
    Again, how does one do this without first knowing it, and how does one come to know it without first assuming all sorts of ideas. For instance, you’re assuming the path to this knowledge and discernment is self-study; but the Bible argues that it is through the teaching of the local church. In my view, you have come to the wrong conclusion that has been heavily influenced by the Enlightenment understanding of the individual and his ability to come to the truth apart from the group that is the church. Again, you won’t find that in the Bible, but it is very liberal/fundamentalist/evangelical of you. I'll stick with the path of biblical Christianity.

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  8. You have somehow managed to type a lot without ever identifying this mythical church whose teachings are all perfectly accurate. I get it, evangelicalism is very, very bad and the idealized apostolic church is very very good—but that church does not exist. We have had monolithic churches with narrow creeds, who claimed apostolic authority. Many of their doctrines conflicted with scripture, you were not allowed to disagree with them on penalty of excommunication and only the clergy could truly understand Scripture. The men I mentioned were all very godly scholars, they disagree on some issues, but agree on the major issues. They disagree on some issues, but all their beliefs are orthodox. They are men who strive to conform to the character of Christ. Furthermore, they are men who fellowship with one another, respect one another and value one another as fellow believers. Do you really think there is a church out their that has interpreted the whole of the Bible perfectly? If you do you are living in a fools paradise.

    Believe it or not you can read and understand the Bible, even without someone telling you what to believe. If you apply a grammatical historical hermeneutic to the text you will be able to consistently interpret the basic meaning accurately. I came to know Christ in a charismatic church. After I received Christ, I read through the New Testament every week for a year (52 times). At the end of a year, I knew the churches teachings were not biblical and I had a very good idea of what orthodox Christianity was, simply by studying the New Testament alone.

    You like to constantly say, “where in the Bible does it say,” I would like to ask you where in the bible does it say that Paul spent 3 years in Arabia receiving direct divine revelation? The Bible doesn’t mention anything about that. It simply says:
    Galatians 1:15-18 (ESV)
    But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.

    This is the problem with those who would create a monolithic church, with a strict creed that discourages thinking and intense personal study. All to often where Scripture is silent, they take it upon themselves to fill in the blanks with assumptions which they set in stone and declare they cannot be challenged. I’ll stick with the messiness of Evangelicalism, at least it allows the Scriptures to speak for themselves, not through the mouthpiece of a religious bureaucrat

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  9. One other thing, you seam to believe that the Bible teaches that all learning has to come through the “local church.” This is not true, the Bible encourages personal prayerful study of the scriptures. It is the responsibility of every believer to seek out good teachers, to put teachings to the test so that we can identify what is true and what is false. The over emphasis you place on learning being exclusively through the local church is more cult like than Biblical. It is a practice carried out by cults like Mormonism and the Jehovehs Witness, not to mention Islam.

    In the first century learning tended to be concentrated in the local church because there were no printing presses, only extremely rich people owned very few books. If you wanted to read the Old Testament you had to go to a Synagogue, if you wanted to read the New Testament you had to go to a church and hope it had a Gospel and a few letters. Today we have the entire Bible both Old and New Testaments in our homes, we have access to 2000 years of Christian teaching. We would be insane not to avail ourselves of it. Ephesians says that God has provided pastors and teachers, surely you don’t think that is restricted only to the local church. We literally stand on the shoulders of giants, Calvin, Luther, Augustin, etc, etc, etc.. I have questions about text criticism that 99 percent of the elders in churches have no clue how to answer, yet there are fine books written by very godly men that can give me the answers I need, but according to you that would be unbiblical. It would be much better to ignore the pastors and teachers that God has provided through the millennia, in favor of the local elder board. One other thing you are ignoring, you are responsible for identifying false teaching, do you really want to abrogate your responsibility and take another man’s word for what is false teaching and what isn’t.

    Pastors and teachers are essential to the health of the Church and those pastors and teachers are not restricted to the local church. But you should remember that every believer has a personal teacher, as well.
    1 John 2:27
    27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teachess you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    Why would we have this if we weren’t supposed to use it?

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  10. "You have somehow managed to type a lot without ever identifying this mythical church whose teachings are all perfectly accurate."

    Your inability to read me is simply proving my point that the ability to interpret text, much less Scripture, is not given to everyone. I said nothing f a perfect church existing anywhere. I said that the true church is found in local churches teaching the whole counsel of God within a historically orthodox framework. I can only assume you need to move the goalpost because you're trying to win an argument.

    " I get it, evangelicalism is very, very bad and the idealized apostolic church is very very good—but that church does not exist."

    Actually, it does. It exists everywhere a local church is teaching the whole counsel of God within an orthodox framework. LOL. You seem to think this means its perfect rather than growing. The true church is a place of growth as the Spirit applies the teaching of the whole counsel of God to the people in communion and under the authority of elders (as the New Testament teaches). Evangelicalism is stunts the growth of its members by reducing Christianity down to its bare bones in an effort to include as many churches under its umbrella as possible. It's a sorry excuse for a church, and ironically, is the true cult here.

    "The men I mentioned were all very godly scholars, they disagree on some issues, but agree on the major issues. They disagree on some issues, but all their beliefs are orthodox."

    Uh no. All of their beliefs were not orthodox. You apparently don't know their theology that well. What you mean to say is that, as an Evangelical, you don't think their other beliefs are important and so they can hold unorthodox ideas as long as we strip down what is important to a couple doctrines. But this is a red-herring, as you seem to be assuming that I'm arguing for theological perfection, and instead, I'm arguing for the fullness of theological and ethical teaching in a local church as the means by which it grows in sanctification.

    "Believe it or not you can read and understand the Bible, even without someone telling you what to believe. If you apply a grammatical historical hermeneutic to the text you will be able to consistently interpret the basic meaning accurately."

    Oh really? Why is that people who employ the historical-grammatical hermeneutic differ so much in their interpretations if it's a fool-proof method of coming to the truth? Again, you have an unbiblical idea of how God communicates truth. Jesus did not give the gift of the historical-grammatical hermeneutic when He ascended on high, but teachers to the church as the means by which it would be sanctified.

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  11. "After I received Christ, I read through the New Testament every week for a year (52 times). At the end of a year, I knew the churches teachings were not biblical and I had a very good idea of what orthodox Christianity was, simply by studying the New Testament alone."

    And yet you didn't get the crucial teaching that sanctification of the Christian is through the means of sitting under the church's teaching in fellowship as the teachers Christ has provided in order for it to grow to maturity.

    "You like to constantly say, “where in the Bible does it say,” I would like to ask you where in the bible does it say that Paul spent 3 years in Arabia receiving direct divine revelation?"

    Just to be clear, you're going to nitpick about this verse not being explicitly clear about where Paul gets his doctrine, but not even attempt to get your entire theology of the means to sanctification from the Bible at all, even arguing that the Bible's means of sanctification is largely unfaithful and irrelevant now. Amazing.

    Second, Paul gets his theology from revelation, both from the Spirit leading his interpretations of Scripture or directly. He's an apostle, an uber prophet/teacher. He's not a layman studying the Bible on his own.

    "This is the problem with those who would create a monolithic church, with a strict creed that discourages thinking and intense personal study. All to often where Scripture is silent, they take it upon themselves to fill in the blanks with assumptions which they set in stone and declare they cannot be challenged."

    You seem to be arguing with someone else, not me. I never argued for a monolithic church, and I'm not just filling in the blanks. Paul is an apostle and does not get his teaching/interpretations of Scripture from men. Are you arguing that he just gets his interpretations of Scripture form private study that is no more aided by the Holy Spirit than any other layman studying the text on his own? So all laymen have apostolic authority to teach now?



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  12. "One other thing, you seam to believe that the Bible teaches that all learning has to come through the “local church.” This is not true, the Bible encourages personal prayerful study of the scriptures. It is the responsibility of every believer to seek out good teachers, to put teachings to the test so that we can identify what is true and what is false."

    Yeah, I've seen you state this time and again. I'm still waiting for the Scripture that tells laymen to do this.

    "The over emphasis you place on learning being exclusively through the local church is more cult like than Biblical. It is a practice carried out by cults like Mormonism and the Jehovehs Witness, not to mention Islam."

    Haha. There is the typical Evangelical response right there. What? You have a high view of the church. You must be a cult. LOL. The dark side of the force has taught you well. I always tell my congregation that the person they should not trust the most is themselves. They have the most to gain or lose by deceiving themselves. You're always trusting in teachers no matter what you want to believe. What's the difference between you trusting teachers in a local church setting versus from a book? At least you know the godly conduct of your local elders. You have no idea what the authors of most books are like. And how exactly are you judging what they say in the book? By other books? By other teachers. You're dependent upon teachers whether you like it or not. The issue is whether there is a church outside of the local church. I don't believe there is. I believe the church only exists in the local church. There isn't any church beyond its manifestation in local congregations. You have an anachronistic and unbiblical view of the church if you think it exists beyond the local church.

    "In the first century learning tended to be concentrated in the local church because there were no printing presses, only extremely rich people owned very few books. If you wanted to read the Old Testament you had to go to a Synagogue, if you wanted to read the New Testament you had to go to a church and hope it had a Gospel and a few letters. Today we have the entire Bible both Old and New Testaments in our homes, we have access to 2000 years of Christian teaching. We would be insane not to avail ourselves of it."

    So the only means God gives as His means to sanctify the church is now obsolete, as we can just do this on our own now that the internet and printing press has come along. Did you get this change from the Holy Spirit directly or should we stone you for being a false prophet who speaks against God's Word?

    "Ephesians says that God has provided pastors and teachers, surely you don’t think that is restricted only to the local church."

    Yes, I do. There is no church outside the local churches where it manifested.

    "We literally stand on the shoulders of giants, Calvin, Luther, Augustin, etc, etc, etc.."

    All pastors of local churches.

    " I have questions about text criticism that 99 percent of the elders in churches have no clue how to answer, yet there are fine books written by very godly men that can give me the answers I need, but according to you that would be unbiblical."

    Maybe you should go to churches where the men can answer them. However, I'm referring to the local church as a place that teaches the whole counsel of God in order to provide Christians with a full worldview, not as the source of all factual knowledge.

    " It would be much better to ignore the pastors and teachers that God has provided through the millennia, in favor of the local elder board."

    Again, you don't seem to be grasping my argument. I'm not even sure how you would come to this conclusion from what I said.

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  13. " One other thing you are ignoring, you are responsible for identifying false teaching, do you really want to abrogate your responsibility and take another man’s word for what is false teaching and what isn’t.

    Pastors and teachers are essential to the health of the Church and those pastors and teachers are not restricted to the local church. But you should remember that every believer has a personal teacher, as well.
    1 John 2:27
    27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teachess you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

    You seem really confused here. You don't need teachers because you have the responsibility to evaluate all of them, which makes you the teacher, and you are the teacher because you have the Holy Spirit personally as a teacher (rather than in regard to what John is saying in the context, you apply this to the entire Word of God--I'm not sure why we even have a Bible if we don't need even the Bible to teach us because we have the Holy Spirit teaching us). Then you say that pastors and teachers are essential to the health of the church. Why would they be essential if you don't need them because you have the Holy Spirit already and should just study on your own rather than trust any man? This is all convoluted Evangelical doublespeak.

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  14. Finally, just to be clear about Galatians, the text says that God revealed, i.e., gave revelation about His Son to Paul, Paul is arguing that he did not receive His teaching from men, and not even the other apostles themselves. That means he got it from God via revelation. The implied teaching of the text is just as important as the explicit. However, Paul also states it in 1:11-12: "Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. For I did not receive it or learn it from any human source; instead I received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ."

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  15. I think you may be from a Charismatic background judging by the way you contorted the meaning of 1 John 2:27. You completely misunderstand my point or tried to contort it into a strawman argument. God has supplied us with pastors and teachers, not just in the local church, but throughout the universal Church. He has also, with the anointing of the HOLY Spirit supplied us with what is necessary to carry on study on our own. This also provides a check and balance so that we are not just at the mercy of those who hand knowledge down from on high. People in ecclesiastical authority do make mistakes and, at times, do emphasize some doctrines to the exclusion of others. The reverse is also true, the leadership may have the wisdom to recognize if I am wrongly dividing the truth. The point which you seam determined to misrepresent is that the Bible demands both intense personal study and study within the local church. What you suggest is a cultic control of knowledge where you must believe only what has been approved and spoon fed to you.

    As far as Paul in Arabia, it is easy to speculate about what happened. It is even easier to do it in a way that supports your position. If we are going to speculate, lets attempt to be fair; he probably did receive some direct revelation from God, he probably, also, spent many hours alone reading over the Old Testament and the Torah in some synagogues in Arabia trying to understand how the new teaching fit in with what God had previously handed down, and he definitely spent, many hours alone in prayer and in meditation on the Old Testament passages he had memorized. What he specifically didn’t do was go to his local church and sit uncritically under the mentorship of another. The Bible definitely teaches mentorship, but not mentorship alone.

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  16. Nowhere in 1 John does John refer to the Holy Spirit being given for the purpose of personal Bible study. That is not only a twisting of the text by inserting a foreign idea into it, it is an anachronistic interpretation that reads a modern scenario into an ancient text. John's point is that the false teachers have walked away from their teaching, precisely, because they have the spirit of antichrist. The genuine believers who have stayed under the teaching of the apostles evidence an anointing from the Holy Spirit that instructs them through their teachers, in this case the apostles. Hence, what he says backs what I am saying, not what you are saying. You've simply developed an extrabiblical program of sanctification that you now impose upon every Christian, and then say if they don't follow your made-up program, they're unfaithful. Nothing sounds more cult-like than that.

    And while we're talking about cults, although most heresy in history is from elders who would not submit to the orthodox framework given to them, in the modern era, cults come about mainly from laymen who think their personal Bible study has yielded them truths that the teachers of the church have gotten wrong. In that regard, your view is also cultic and departs from the orthodox view of the Scripture, which is supreme in telling us God's means of sanctification (not mentioning anything about personal Bible study for laymen who don't even have personal Bibles), and also the historic orthodox framework which places the elders/teachers of the church as the rightful interpreters of God's Word.

    There are no checks and balances with laymen. It's only a matter of their receiving in humility what God has given them to grow them or a rejection of it in arrogance. That's like saying passengers on a plane all have the responsibility to learn how to fly a plane and tell the captains how to do it for the purpose of checks and balances. What a mess that would create, and what a mess it has created in the church.

    As far as Paul going to Arabia, I've already shown you that it isn't speculation. It's Paul's entire point about his message in the book. He didn't get it from a human source or through a human means, but from a revelation from both God and Jesus Christ. He states this explicitly and implicitly a few times. Your inability to read the context is what makes this argument against laymen interpreting Scripture so easy to make. That's now three texts (1 John, Galatians, and Eph 4) that you have either misread or taken out of context. I would trust in the Bible to give you your theology, and therefore, trust in the means through which it tells you to get your theology, i.e., through the proclamation of teachers in the church, if I were you.

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  17. This interpretation of John, that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to the individual, rather than through the teaching of the Church given to them, is actually a foundational doctrine of liberal Christianity. If the Holy Spirit just teaches all things directly to Christians, then not only the church, but the Bible itself, is obsolete, and can even be contradicted. Just another witness that Evangelicalism and its radical individualism is an unchristian, apostate movement that exists merely as yet another faction of liberalism in disguise.

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  18. I never even suggested that “the Holy Spirit just teaches all things directly to Christians.” Why do you insist on trying to create straw man arguments? You are very intellectually dishonest. The Point of 1st John is that all believers have received an anointing of the Holy Spirit and therefore had adequate instruction in the truth of God. John wrote the epistle precisely because their apprehension of the truth was correct and because the truth should never be confused with a lie. This rudimentary instruction must be built upon by instruction in the church and personal Bible study. I have never even suggested personal Bible study to the exclusion of study within the church. In fact, I would strongly suggest that all personal Bible study should be tested constantly against orthodox Church teachings.

    You seam to have a very naïve faith in the inerrancy of church leaders. Do you really think that there is a local church in existence that has interpreted all of the Bible correctly? I have exposed myself to a wide range of Biblical thought in an effort to find the best interpretations that interact with the texts in the original languages, allowing scripture to interpret scripture. I have found that most agree on the basics. I have found all of what I have studied to deepen my understanding of Scripture because it has forced me deeper into Scripture. I see that you list several books that deal with the creation account. I guess we shouldn’t read them because that would be personal bible study. You do know that there is not a single interpretation of the creation account that is not problematic. The issue is trying to find the interpretation that contains the least problems. Yet you claim that the local church knows the right interpretation. I have never heard of an inerrant church.

    This obsession with trying to control the thinking of congregants is cultic. Paul told Timothy to “study to show yourself approved,” that obviously included studying at the feet of Paul, but it just as obviously included personal study of the Scriptures. It is impossible not to have personal Bible study, anytime we think about Scripture, anytime we meditate on Scripture we are studying it. The Catholics tried to prevent this by insisting that the mass be performed in Latin, thus putting it out of reach of the “laymen.” Your position is almost identical to that of the Jehovah’s witnesses. Cults always try to prevent their adherents from thinking. Yet scripture is just the opposite, remember the Breans:
    Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    Since you insist on twisting my words into straw man arguments and you seam more intent on winning than communicating, I believe this conversation has become an exercise in futility.

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  19. First, let’s be very clear. It is you who have twisted what I am saying. At no time have I said that the church controls information. That is impossible for it to do. The issue is who is the rightful interpreter of Scripture so that the average layman can be equipped and become mature in Christ, i.e., a teacher himself. Is it through his personal Bible study, the teaching of the church, or both? You have argued it is through both, but implied that it is primarily through personal Bible study, as you have argued that it would be cultic to just trust the church. That’s your argument. There is no twisting here. If you are frustrated, it is because I’m bringing out the unbiblical and illogical nature of your position, and you simply don’t like it. So let me break down what your argument logically entails.
    1. If a cult is defined as any situation where you have to trust other men for the truth and not yourself, then every single person in the world is in a cult.
    2. If a cult is defined as any situation where you have to trust other men for the truth, then your confessing that you study lots of books from lots of places is a confession that you belong to a cult, since those books come from men. Books that teach Greek, Hebrew, theology, hermeneutics, commentaries, etc. are all coming from men and could be deceived and deceiving you. You just have to trust them, and unless you are a scholar, you have simply trust that they are true or evaluate them with other books, i.e., teachers. So you are always evaluating teachers with other teachers and are never fully a product of your own thinking. You are always trusting a translators of a Bible translation, or particular scholar over another, or one group of scholars over other groups of scholars. The issue is that you don’t know if any of these men are biblically qualified, but you are trusting them either way.
    3. What this comes down to is that you want to argue for the cult of the individual over the church as the means of discernment and sanctification in the truth. For you, the individual must do his own personal study and evaluate all of these teachers and his churches himself because, in the end, it is primarily the individual, not the church and its teachers, who is the arbiter of truth. I have argued that this is biblically and logically impossible. The individual is completely dependent upon other men. It is only a matter of what other men he is to rely upon. The Bible argues that he should rely upon the qualified men that are given to the local church to teach it. You have rejected that claim and made them subordinate to your own position of power, which is nothing more than a flavor of the religion of the self, which Evangelicalism props up as the ideal.
    4. Your definition of a cult means that the apostolic church, the early church to follow, and the entire church before the advent of the printing press and maybe even not until the advent of the internet, where each individual eventually could own his own Bible and study tools, was a cult. It has only just now been enabled to become faithful in breaking away from the restraints of the cult in order to judge it through self study.

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  20. 5. You only have two options with 1 John, so please don’t act like I’ve twisted your position. Perhaps, it is you who don’t understand the implications of the things you’ve said. The text states that they have no need for anyone to teach them because they have an anointing from the Holy Spirit that teaches them “all things.” You want to change “all things” to “basic things,” but that isn’t what it says. Either they have been taught “all things” by the Holy Spirit through the apostles and teachers teaching what the apostles have taught them (which is what the context of the book indicates) or through personal revelation. They don’t have their own Bibles so that is not an option. You must insert that means of their being “taught all things” into the text anachronistically. Hence, either their faithfulness is in adhering to what they have been taught by their teachers, or by what they’ve been taught directly by the Holy Spirit. That either means that they absolutely need teachers to teach them “all things” or they don’t need teachers at all (emphasis on the word “need”). You can’t have it both ways and argue that they need both from this passage.
    6. You’ve now taken Timothy out of context. Timothy is a teacher appointing elders, i.e., other teachers. Of course, Timothy as a teacher is to study the Scriptures and teach them.
    7. You’ve now misinterpreted Acts 17:11 to be referring to laymen checking their teachers’ interpretations of the Bible rather than under their teachers, rabbis, making sure the texts quoted are actually in the Bible.
    I agree that this has become a futile conversation because you refuse to listen to my actual argument. The fact that you keep making it about inerrant interpretations and perfection of teaching shows that you have not read me this entire time, and the devolving of your argument into name calling displays the emptiness of your position. You’ve simply run out of arguments, so the ad hominems start to fly.
    In the end, we have one program given to us in Scripture that sufficiently and completely sanctifies the church by building it up in the truth in love. There is no other program given to us, and your Evangelical cult of the self cannot submit to it. It must lift itself up as a new and better way, and yet, its fruit, even in your interpretations here, has shown itself to be rotten. I have seen more damage from self-study than from any local church that has multiple elders who are trained and qualified to be in their positions. In fact, the bulk of churches who mislead are run by laymen who think as you do. It is an unfortunate byproduct of the cult radical individualism. I would just remind you that all cults call others cults, so all that is left to decide between us is the Scripture in context as it has been faithfully taught by the church and its teachers. The JW’s and Mormons do personal Bible study, but they have gone out from us because they were never really of us.
    I once believed as you did, but ironically, realized that my thinking was of another religion, and was not supported by the Bible or the facts of church history and doctrine.

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