tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post1434787619424468214..comments2023-09-07T12:03:43.350-07:00Comments on Theological Sushi: What I Think of the Charismatic Movement (Since You Were Dying to Know)B. C. Hodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02828477115799852133noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post-24045663116860360502013-10-23T01:26:51.803-07:002013-10-23T01:26:51.803-07:00Yeah, it's pretty widespread in the UK, althou...Yeah, it's pretty widespread in the UK, although seen as 'American' by those outside the church. Pentecostalism has been around a long time - Smith Wigglesworth was a particularly notable figurehead in the early 20th century. It was in the sixties when the charismatic movement really kicked off though, leading to the formation of networks like Newfrontiers, which I've grown up in, and has made inroads into the US recently. There was a lot of charismatic 'renewal' in the Anglican church too, which still has effects today. So the major Charismatic youth festival 'Soul Survivor' is of Anglican origin. You'd see fairly similar stuff to what you'd see in the US. Newfrontiers is a bit like Sovereign Grace in describing itself as 'reformed charismatic': I think it's emphasis on Bible teaching does steer it away from the wackier end of the scale. But in certain churches here the teaching from Bethel Church in California and the Toronto Fellowship is having a big effect, and that's certainly pretty leftfield, with a fair few dodgy elements as you've described.Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post-26936368152321191052013-10-22T19:03:10.951-07:002013-10-22T19:03:10.951-07:00Truth,
I have met those as well. I was speaking m...Truth,<br /><br />I have met those as well. I was speaking more along the lines of people I would consider true believers in the movement. There are those who are rebellious against the Word of God who are not yet believers in the movement as well. I would view him as becoming a believer later, rather than earlier in that case. No one speaking according to the Spirit says "Jesus is accursed," or "the devil" for that matter. So those who attribute the work of faithful preachers of the truth to the devil have a doubtful faith. Hence, I think the man you cite above became a believer and was saved out of his rebellion that hid behind his false religion that did not have the Word at its core.B. C. Hodgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02828477115799852133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post-86101412103413053922013-10-22T17:53:01.387-07:002013-10-22T17:53:01.387-07:00"But I have also seen a greater teachable spi...<i>"But I have also seen a greater teachable spirit among charismatics, far greater than those within my own circles."</i><br /><br />Wow. That's diametrically the opposite of what I found in my own circles.<br /><br />This former charismatic put it this way:<br /><br />"I think I might somewhat understand what’s stirring up a lot of this post-Strange Fire firepower. Back in my late, unlamented charismatic days, <b>I tended to get thrown into a major tizzy if anyone dared to raise the slightest question about my doctrine or practice.</b> I was pretty much living in a constant state of spiritual warfare against doubt and unbelief, so I think I perceived even the most well-meaning critics as being instruments of Satan. It was hard to be spiritually secure while trying to defend spiritual gifts that are–by my own camp’s universal admission–subject to error and even outright counterfeits. Since then I’ve learned that the Holy Spirit is well able to defend Himself against criticism, so I feel free to take my time to respond to my critics in a calm and patient manner. Perhaps something like my former spiritual insecurity is behind the charismatic side’s vehement response to the Strange Fire conference and book."<br /><br />From here: http://mennoknight.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/random-thoughts-in-the-aftermath-of-strange-fire/#comment-3107Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post-20236479838460536852013-10-22T13:35:45.580-07:002013-10-22T13:35:45.580-07:00That's interesting, Ben. I wasn't aware th...That's interesting, Ben. I wasn't aware that the movement was very popular in the UK. Does it look the same there that it does here? <br /><br />Yeah, I don't really know what the "word of knoweldge" is meant to convey in Scripture. It's rather ambiguous. But if that is what they are doing, it isn't prophecy or having a conversation with God, as many claim. I've had so many say something like the following exchange:<br /><br /> God just told me, "Bob, why aren't you yelling more in your preaching?" I said, "God, I'm gonna kick it up a notch." And God said, "atta boy."<br /><br />That just isn't anything we see in Scripture. Revelation, as well, is always received through one of those means in Scripture. We never have any other means mentioned. So I would conclude that the "word of knowledge" was either a reference to prophecy, and therefore, interchangeable with it (telling us it was received by way of a vision), or it was some sort of sixth-sense God gave an individual to know something he needed to know in a particular moment to communicate the truth/edify the church. I really don't know. Maybe it exists today as well. I really don't know. I've seen a lot of it. I've seen a lot of false instances of it as well. It's hard to know, so I don't spend my time harping on whether these smaller gifts are still in play, mainly because I don't really know what they are. But I don't really see genuine prophecy anymore, where the individual has gone into a trance, or a dream, or has been visited by an angel or something. <br /><br />I think tongues are literal languages. The tongue is used throughout the Bible as a causal metonymy for language. I think that's why Paul contrasts the languages of men with angels in 1 Cor 13 as a merism. They are real languages. Their purpose is to display God's judgment upon Israel (to convey their exile per the deuteronomic curse). I think they are used before the destruction of the temple for that purpose, but when the temple is destroyed it serves as the ultimate sign and the tongues are no longer needed. It's interesting, however, that God first uses it to evangelize the Jews. When they hear it, they know something is wrong. Peter then tells them what's wrong (i.e., they crucified the Messiah and need to repent). There is a lot that goes into that interpretation though.<br /><br />I'll have to get that book. Thanks for the recommendation. B. C. Hodgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02828477115799852133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6376955256463224749.post-64130469805748076212013-10-22T02:01:25.453-07:002013-10-22T02:01:25.453-07:00As a matter of fact, I was interested to know! Tur...As a matter of fact, I was interested to know! Turns out you have a very similar background to me. I'm currently attending my home church (which is charismatic) while studying for my MA, and I heartily agree with your analysis of the good and bad things found in the movement. <br /><br />Your point about prophecy always being 'obvious' (dream, vision, etc.) is interesting. As I'm sure you're aware, words from thoughts and pictures when in normal consciousness are fairly standard among charismatics. The thing is that sometimes they *are* spot-on, or something that the speaker couldn't have known about ('words of knowledge'): many are just expressions of the speaker's own thoughts, I'm sure (and not necessarily unbiblical), but it does seem hard for me to dismiss them all. And as for speaking in tongues - do you see them as being just literal languages in the Bible?<br /><br />Elluls's 'The Humilation of the Word' is great on the distinction between religions of the word and religions of image (and he does touch on the spectacle of charismatic meetings at the end). Well worth a read. Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.com